tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2613335924468202284.post2885020215536110675..comments2023-07-30T05:51:02.673-04:00Comments on Journey to Surrender: Men Only Monday: Husbands Lead With LoveScotthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15382135979097709418noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2613335924468202284.post-77203604480763690542011-07-18T10:05:18.784-04:002011-07-18T10:05:18.784-04:00SM -
My first attempt to re-post your comments w...SM - <br /><br />My first attempt to re-post your comments was unsuccessful. I ended up breaking into smaller portions and it now seems to have "stuck." <br /><br />Thanks for your very thorough analysis and for sharing your views. I have read many of your arguments on other pro-egalitarian websites, but upon review of all the relevant information I simply do not draw the same conclusions you draw. What I've realized that in this area, it seems both egalitarian and complimentarians can make strong cases for their viewpoints. <br /><br />As for my reference to the Kyria article, it wasn't meant to be in support of my viewpoint or a thorough exegetical analysis of the topic, but rather one woman's personal story of her own grappling with the authority/headship issue. <br /><br />Thanks for participating in the discussion here. I hope you stop by again.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15382135979097709418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2613335924468202284.post-34961889704609096722011-07-18T09:54:20.480-04:002011-07-18T09:54:20.480-04:00(comment continued from previous)
If a Christian ...(comment continued from previous)<br /><br />If a Christian husband and wife agree through mutual consent to live in a hierarchical relationship and agree the husband has authority **as defined by the dictionary**, the application of agape and other Christian virtues and principles by *both* spouses can produce a surrendered, Christ-honoring marriage. Likewise, a Christian husband and wife sacrificially loving, respecting, deferring, and employing Christian virtues and the same relational principles I've read in some of your posts can live a surrendered, Christ-honoring marriage without the agreement through mutual consent to live in an authority-based relationship.<br /><br />It is the application of those virtues and principles in name of and for the glory of Christ which makes for a surrendered and Christ-honoring marriage.<br /><br />If no effectual authority (denotatively defined) exists, I do not see the benefit of using a word that does not describe what exists in reality?<br /><br />As for the link, it has problems of its own. Not the least of which is that the bible never teaches that a husband is the "head of his house". It is true that a husband, may be, and many are the "head of household", but some many not be. http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Head_of_Household.aspx<br /><br />Also, I don't she how she supports your posts and her struggle, as I understand it, is not at all with the idea that her has authority. She actually doesn't claim her husband has authority, denotatively or otherwise defined. She seems to loosely cling to some hierarchical jargon but unabashedly asserts her marriage is one of loving mutuality and because her husband is sacrificially loving (within a paradigm of mutuality), she respects his opinions, desires, and plans without any mention of an obligation or responsibility of his to exact obedience of them because they have mutually agreed to consent to an authority structure.<br /><br />SMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2613335924468202284.post-21458693166018265412011-07-18T09:53:35.512-04:002011-07-18T09:53:35.512-04:00(comment continued from previous)
This was the cu...(comment continued from previous)<br /><br />This was the cultural context in which Paul lived and wrote. The Greco-Roman culture was consumed with prominence and status. Male authority and privilege were assumed. Female subordination and obedience were assumed. For Paul, and rightly so, the influence of the gospel was of paramount importance. The teaching to real people in a culture devoted to prominence, status, authority, and obedience structures gives a new Christian ethic to the codes without maligning the gospel or subverting its influence. The gospel informed the early Christians about how they should live given their station (husband-wife, father-child, master-slave)in an authority-based culture consumed with prominence and status. Paul does not command a hierarchy but “Christinizes” the already existing hierarchy.<br /><br />There is much that is significant in Paul’s addressing these household ethics i.e. opting out of the Greek word archon/head that means ruler and choosing to employ a kephale/literal head-body metaphor instead. Not the least is, in the extension of this head-body metaphor, Paul instructs the Ephesian husband to agape his wife as his own body as Christ did for His body (church) by giving up His life on the church's (body's) behalf to set her (church) apart unto Himself. Paul’s instruction relating to the culture’s household codes is radical on at least two counts: first, the husband is NOT told how to rule or govern his wife which was the usual objective of household codes, and, second, the husband is told to agape his wife which was not an objective of household codes. These are specific instructions of how the gospel informs the living of real people in real time in a real socio-political context. For Christ-followers today, there are principles that can be derived and applied...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2613335924468202284.post-77767069300894655262011-07-18T09:52:08.337-04:002011-07-18T09:52:08.337-04:00Scott,
It seems comments are limited to so many c...Scott,<br /><br />It seems comments are limited to so many characters, so I will break this up.<br /><br />There is no word in the Ephesian passage under consideration in your post that commands or commends a husband's exercise of authority over his wife. To infer authority as the English equivalent to the kephale, is to read our English idiomatic metaphorical use of the word head back into the text rather than letting the context (historical) and, most obvious, the literary context of an extended head-body metaphor inform our understanding. To infer agape means authority is nonsensical.<br /><br />The Ephesian husbands did not have authority conferred on them by agreement through mutual consent with their wives, but lived within a cultural construct in which Roman law and tradition granted the paterfamilias/husband legal privilege and **authority** over his property: wife, children, & slaves. As a proper citizen, the paterfamilias/husband was to fulfill his duty and use his authority over his property (wife, children, and slaves) to maintain proper social order.<br /><br />Philosophers developed “household codes” which instructed the paterfamilias in his duty to manage his household by giving advice on the style or manner in which to exercise his socio-politically sanctioned authority ie harsh rule or a benevolent rule. Just prior to Christ’s birth, Arius Didymus summarized Aristotle’s household codes for Augustus Caesar. He argued that “a man has the rule of this household by nature, for the deliberative faculty in a woman is inferior…” Exercise of authority and management of the household by the paterfamilias in the Greco-Roman culture was necessary because women were considered lacking in faculty...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2613335924468202284.post-35192778407676855072011-07-16T23:40:06.091-04:002011-07-16T23:40:06.091-04:00I received your comments via email notification, s...I received your comments via email notification, so I do not know why they do not appear on the website. Perhaps I can repost them myself.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15382135979097709418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2613335924468202284.post-81201194354053431812011-07-16T21:25:19.985-04:002011-07-16T21:25:19.985-04:00I posted reply comments but they are not showing.
...I posted reply comments but they are not showing.<br /><br />SMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2613335924468202284.post-64242137195795652542011-07-16T11:38:17.724-04:002011-07-16T11:38:17.724-04:00Thanks for following up with your comment SM.
I u...Thanks for following up with your comment SM.<br /><br />I understand your concern about using words in a way that attributes different meaning. Unfortunately we don't all speak Greek any longer, so we are are stuck with English equivalents to the original biblical texts, hence some of the confusion and limitations. (For example our singular word "love" does little to convey the variations of love we see in the New Testament, and hence much of the clarity and meaning are difficult to convey).<br /><br />I just read an interesting article from Kyria in which a woman describes her struggle with the words and concepts around the authority question. <a href="http://www.kyria.com/topics/marriagefamily/marriage/spirituality/7m1066.html" rel="nofollow">Who's the Head of My House</a> <br /><br />This topic may be worthy of a dedicated post. Thanks for prompting further thought.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15382135979097709418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2613335924468202284.post-75236127403446350802011-07-14T14:30:09.046-04:002011-07-14T14:30:09.046-04:00Scott,
Thank you for the reply. Unfortunately, y...Scott,<br /><br />Thank you for the reply. Unfortunately, your explanation does little to make things more clear. If "headship" means authority, and if a husband does not have the right to control, exact obedience, command, direct, etc., as you explained in your post, then it is still doublespeak. <br /><br />We rely on dictionary definitions because if we all use words outside their standard meanings then communication becomes difficult, if not impossible. Communication, written or spoken, in part, depends heavily upon the use of words and their established meanings.<br /> <br />If one does not believe a husband has the right to control, exact obedience, command, direct, etc. there is no need to say he has authority. If one does indeed believe, by agreement and mutual consent, a husband has the right to control, exact obedience, command, direct, etc., but it should be done benevolently, then confusion can be eliminated by saying so straightforwardly. It is interesting that in the last paragraph of your reply you place quotes around the word authority. This is commonly done when a word is being used in a peculiar or special way. You may have just been using the quotes to draw attention to the word. Given that you seem to be redefining the word authority, I suspect the former. So, it remains unclear what you mean. <br /><br />I commend you on your efforts to encourage husbands to love their wives well.<br /><br />SMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2613335924468202284.post-7962228515516973392011-07-11T15:35:59.469-04:002011-07-11T15:35:59.469-04:00SM -
Many use the term "headship" in p...SM - <br /><br />Many use the term "headship" in place of authority. If you like that word better, I don't really have a problem with it. <br /><br />Truthfully all the simple words surrounding a biblically ordered marriage (submission, headship, authority) are both limiting and wrought with contention, because people rely on dictionary definitions rather that biblical understanding. <br /><br />I would only point you to Jesus as the example where "authority" and laying down your life do not conflict, which is really my point of this post.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15382135979097709418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2613335924468202284.post-14731163687453088722011-07-10T19:57:09.843-04:002011-07-10T19:57:09.843-04:00authority n. 1) the power to determine, adjudicate...authority n. 1) the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine. (Dictionary.com)<br /><br />authority n. 1) a. The power to enforce laws, exact obedience, command, determine, or judge. (thefreedictionary.com)<br /><br /><br />"Your authority in your marriage does not give you the right to simply make all the decisions or to tell your wife what to do."<br /><br />If the husband's "authority", as you say, does not give him a right to command or control, then it would be helpful to drop the doublespeak and use a different word because "authority" is confusing and/or loses its meaning if you redefine. <br /><br />"It [authority] comes with the right to lay down your life for her and to serve her."<br /><br />I think you mean....agape. The Ephesians husbands were told to agape their wives as Christ agaped the church and gave Himself up for her. The text is speaking to the way in which Ephesian husbands were to agape their wives NOT to the way in which they were to exercise authority over their wives.<br /><br /><br />SMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2613335924468202284.post-50407350570315908842011-06-27T12:29:47.056-04:002011-06-27T12:29:47.056-04:00Strong Man - you might check out my post "The...Strong Man - you might check out my post "The Myth of Equality" <br /><br />http://www.surrenderedmarriage.org/2010/02/audacity-of-bridal-paradigm-part-2.htmlScotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15382135979097709418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2613335924468202284.post-43945296743624339442011-06-13T11:40:13.733-04:002011-06-13T11:40:13.733-04:00Scott--good scriptural addition. I'd be inter...Scott--good scriptural addition. I'd be interested in your future thoughts about equality and authority coexisting. I agree with you, and I see that as a real tension that many struggle with. A lot, I believe, has to do with what we mean by equality.Strong Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03397861817336193206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2613335924468202284.post-316739013170213122011-06-07T12:39:46.975-04:002011-06-07T12:39:46.975-04:00Thank you wk and Strong Man for your comments.
I ...Thank you wk and Strong Man for your comments.<br /><br />I realize that not everyone shares my belief that the scriptures Strong Man lists imply that a husband has authority in marriage. Many parse the same Greek words and analyze the metaphors and come to a different conclusion. What I've stated here is my personal interpretation (and that of many) of what the Word says on this topic, and this I believe pretty strongly.<br /><br />I would add that equality and authority are not mutually exclusive. We need only look to the Trinity to see that fact on display.<br /><br />PS I add 1 Cor 11:3 to the Scriptures listed above.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15382135979097709418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2613335924468202284.post-16040413005796363012011-06-06T20:42:35.989-04:002011-06-06T20:42:35.989-04:00Very well put. I could have named my blog, Man Up...Very well put. I could have named my blog, Man Up and Lead with Love.<br /><br />For wk, The Biblical support for this post and the Bridal analogy for marriage is extensive. are a few specific scriptures: <a href="http://lds.org/scriptures/nt/eph/5?lang=eng#" rel="nofollow">Ephesians 5:22-25, </a> <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/col/3/18-19#18" rel="nofollow">Col. 3: 18-19</a>, <a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_pet/3/1,5,6" rel="nofollow">1 Peter 3:1,5,6</a>,<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_tim/3/12" rel="nofollow">1 Timothy 3:12</a><br /><br />The Bridal paradigm also provides a plethora of scriptures. Many of these I reference in my post: <a href="http://goodstrongmen.blogspot.com/2011/05/christ-as-bridegroom-church-as-bride.html" rel="nofollow"> Christ as Bridegroom, Church as Bride </a>Strong Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03397861817336193206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2613335924468202284.post-63367224741413395292011-06-06T15:27:38.915-04:002011-06-06T15:27:38.915-04:00Great post, Scott! I wholeheartedly agree that we...Great post, Scott! I wholeheartedly agree that we find our proper place in marriage and in the kingdom when we love one another as Christ loves us.<br /><br />I think the biblical case for the "authority" role of the husband is a little less clear, however. I notice you did not include any Scripture references for this...maybe another time?wkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04607458631100122528noreply@blogger.com